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The Same Deep Water As You: The Sausage Post

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Apr. 19th, 2012 | 10:47 am
posted by: haikuesque in haikusociety

*cough*

The Discussion Post, For Potentially Interested Parties

Some of you occasionally asked us questions that we fudged because we didn't want to give away plot points or we didn't want to give away too much about the weirder points of our writing process. Some of you may also wonder about stuff but never asked.

If you were curious about, well, basically anything -- parts of the plot, about the writing process, why there was a bloody cat in the story, whether Junno ever became an accountant and basically the SDWverse past and present -- here's your chance. There are no stupid questions, and we won't take offense if your question is critical. You are officially invited to ask us anything, and we'll do our best to answer!

And one of the things we really liked about posting the chapters was when people read and responded to each other's comments, so if you always wanted to ask ___clash about Kame's shaken baby syndrome want to discuss whether there was too little Jin POV or too little Kame POV want to talk to each other in a thread without us authors butting in, that's more than cool too!

And just because we can and because some people asked, we're running our OC poll again, this time with Ticky Boxes to avoid crises of conscience. *g* Now with a few more characters, after the last few chapters.

Poll #1834655 Same Deep Water Original Character Poll (with very original name)

My favourite OCs in The Same Deep Water As You are...

Danny
6(6.3%)
Eda
0(0.0%)
Hamaguchi
11(11.6%)
Kame's dad
7(7.4%)
Kame's mom
10(10.5%)
Kobi
0(0.0%)
Konoe
0(0.0%)
Matsura
0(0.0%)
Midori
13(13.7%)
Mikami
4(4.2%)
Morioka
15(15.8%)
Natsuko
3(3.2%)
Ootomo
6(6.3%)
Toyoda
0(0.0%)
Tsukada
0(0.0%)
Yamatani
17(17.9%)
Yoshi
3(3.2%)


brezo1816 made a banner for Same Deep Water, too. Look here! :D



Note: Comments -- if there are any -- will obviously contain spoilers, as well as possibly too much information about how the sausage was made.
 
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Comments {42}

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monika894

from: monika894
date: Apr. 20th, 2012 02:43 pm (UTC)
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But Taka-chan?
Letting the cat in on the poll and leaving out the hamster is serious discrimination. Really.

But yay, the ticky boxes made this decision so much easier! :D

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: Apr. 25th, 2012 07:19 pm (UTC)
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Um. We are very sorry that we forgot about Taka-chan. T_T Yes, it's discrimination. Rampant speciesism. We unreservedly apologize to all hamsters. But if we run the poll for the third time, we think people will kill us. Or worse, ignore us. :(

Yay for ticky boxes!

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krystal_32206

from: krystal_32206
date: Apr. 24th, 2012 01:56 pm (UTC)
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I'm also curious about Jin's first meeting with Ootomo. Though in the fic, Jin sort of skimmed over how Ootomo found him on the street.
And in chapter 24, was Kame crying when Jin confronted him about Souji? What do you think was running through Jin's head when he offered to let Kame piss on him?

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: Apr. 25th, 2012 07:18 pm (UTC)
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Okay, for Ootomo, see above in the reply to ___clash. No point repeating all that. :-)

Now, Chapter 24. Yes, Kame was crying. It just... started. He didn't even really know. And Jin was kind of shocked, because that was the last thing he'd expected. He'd known he had something he could use against this guy but not... like that. And he had some experience of his own of how it felt when the guy you loved let you down, and for him it had been bad but at least he could tell himself that Naoki had just been desperate or an idiot, Naoki hadn't actually set out to destroy him. So he knew he'd hit a button there, a really bad button, and in a worse way than he'd meant to.

And at the same time, Kame was really no longer a threat, because it all came together and Jin knew what he was dealing with now. He'd gone in with a pretty good idea already but now he realises, wow, he's got even more power than he thought.

So the offer comes out of two things: that feeling of being in control, and the feeling of 'omg how can I fix this because I know what this feeling feels like and nobody should have to feel like that'. He wants to help, and because he feels in control, he isn't really afraid to help. And the idea itself... well, he knows the sort of thing that seemed to make Kame feel good, right? Put Jin in his place, humiliate him, scare him, make him feel bad. Always worked before. (And now it's not like Jin will really be scared, because hey, he's on top of this, he's the one driving this bus while Kame is kind of a helpless mess.) And Kame is feeling worse now than before, so maybe something a bit more extreme... and for Jin, with his back story, when you go to 'extreme humiliation scenario', there's only one thing that springs to mind because that's where his own trauma lies, and that's what happens. He's winging it and trying to think quickly, and this is what comes up.

And then he figured he could handle it because he was after all rationally deciding to do this, but he was a bit of an idiot because you don't just decide to re-enact your worst experience ever and be fine with it. And while it helped Kame, it helped in a completely different way from what Jin thought, so he was really wrong on both counts. But hey... whatever. :-)

Does this cover it?

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The Elf

from: ina
date: Apr. 25th, 2012 02:31 pm (UTC)
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I would like to know if there were major things that changed through the year of posting. Did comments influence later developments?

As for the universe itself. How did Tomo and Kame's relationship develop?

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: May. 1st, 2012 04:36 pm (UTC)
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Apologies that this is so late. Partly life, partly that we were pondering your first question for a long time and really wanted to remember a thing relevant to it, but for the life of us, we can't.

Anyway, changes while we were posting based on feedback -- we wouldn't say that overly much got changed based on reader response, no. Two things did happen, though. 1) We sometimes weren't sure if we were clear enough with something, or maybe too clear; we try to be subtle, and sometimes that works well and sometimes that leads to 2000 extra words and we still don't know if people got our ~subtlety~, and there were two or three occasions where the comments made us realise 'oops, this still isn't clear, maybe we should go for the stronger phrasing in the upcoming chapter, not the vaguer one' or let us know 'yup, point made, we can stop waffling about that now.' (And we'd love to give you an example, but this is the thing we cannot remember, sorry.)

2) There were two issues where we weren't quite happy ourselves and where the comments really highlighted that we were right not to be, and that was Matsura and Midori. The Matsura revelation is not the best part of this story and we always knew that; in general we're okay with that because 'who set Kame up' is so much less the point than 'what does Kame do with it', THAT was our plot. But people were more and more intrigued by that, and we realised that this really ought to have at least a little beefing up -- in the very first version of the relevant chapter, the reveal happened entirely off screen and was summarized in one paragraph. We hadn't been very happy with that ourselves, but as people got more and more interested in what had happened there, we thought, no, really, we need to give this a little more space.

The other thing was Midori. She ended up getting more screentime post-scandal than we'd originally planned, and to a large degree, that was about restructuring we did; when we chopped up the chapters to cut slightly differently, suddenly there was ROOM where there hadn't been before, and we could consider giving Midori and Kame more closure. And that was helped by people's response to Midori and that we thought, ok, it might also not be such a great thing for the reader if her confrontation with Kame happens off-screen.

In both cases, it wasn't what happened that got changed -- events were the same -- but the degree of screentime those events got was amped up. (Helped by the restructuring that made it possible.)

But we've never changed a plot detail or someone's characterisation based on what came back, no. We couldn't really have anyway, stuff was too far advanced before we started posting.

We'll need to come back for the Tomo and Kame question -- which is an excellent question!

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souleater_angel

from: souleater_angel
date: Apr. 27th, 2012 05:29 pm (UTC)
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What prompted Kame's first visit to the club? I'm assuming it was after Souji and after marrying Midori, (any guilt freak-outs?) If he heard about the club through Tanaka, how did Tanaka find out about his... preferences?

Also I've always wondered how Jin got sucked into the whore world. I know Naoki was doing it, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a Kame thing to Not Be Okay with your boyfriend sleeping with other guys for money, and I'm sure Jin just wasn't just like, 'oh, my boyfriend's doing it, I should try that too!' And I'm sure they were hard up for money but still... And his family found out too. Threre's gotta be a story in there.

:D

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: May. 1st, 2012 05:07 pm (UTC)
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Tanaka knew Kame through the entertainment business, and then he heard about the scandal, where of course Kame denied everything. Just, takes a closet case to know one, and Tanaka wasn't buying the denial. He called Kame not long afterwards and told him about the club, said that was smarter and more discreet than boyfriends, and also he wanted to let Kame know that somebody knew and didn't judge him.

But Kame didn't want to at that point. He wanted to make it work with Midori, he wanted not to be an ass, he never wanted sex for money. And he wanted to not be gay anymore. So he did approximately a year of straightness. He broke up with Souji shortly after his birthday, and it was actually his next birthday that he had a little crisis -- the straight thing just wasn't happening, and he sat there with this is all I'll ever do for the rest of my LIFE... and out of that, he called Tanaka (not right on his birthday!! just, it grew out of that introspection) and said something like, 'Um, about that place you mentioned...'

Part 2 will be addressed shortly. :-)

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bellemelody

from: bellemelody
date: Apr. 30th, 2012 07:28 pm (UTC)
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I'm very late, I know it, that I'm very very late. But I have a question and I'm very curious. I wonder, why Jin didn't tell Kame about his past, why he didn't explain what happend with him, his trauma. kame told everything, open all his fears and his past, but Jin decided to keep everything to himself. I was thinking about it and I have some thought and I'm very curious.
Maybe it's just not so important for the development of the story, because I doubt Kame can change anything, just him being with Jin heal all his wounds and helps to forget. or maybe such confession will bring too much angst? isn't it difficult for Jin to have a secret like this, ot he just decided to forget about it and live with his present, enjoying his life, because in some pasrt Jin is practical and I noticed, that he could just not to put a lot of attentions at things that are not so important. But is it not important right now? is it still his nightmare? I'm very very curious and I'm very very sorry for being so late for this post <3 <3

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bellemelody

from: bellemelody
date: Apr. 30th, 2012 07:31 pm (UTC)
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and one more question!! I'm just crazily curious about Ueda and Kimura reactions at Kame's actions and his desicion to be with Jin and how he decide to choose only Jin, forgetting about them. I'm asking about it, because I noticed that both Ueda and Kimura have a warm feelings to Kame, like asking about him and talking with hi, Kimura with his advice and Tatsuya with his little convoc with Jin. I just love a lot this 2 heroes in this fic :DD

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coldblackwinter

from: coldblackwinter
date: May. 10th, 2012 03:03 pm (UTC)
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Hi first I want to apologize as I have never commented on this fic before,
But so you know, I loved it and was anticipating every Thursday for an update
and you guys never fail to keep the suspense, and all emotions alive...
So thank you.

If I am not mistaken, there's a part where Jin's "room-mate" was murdered, was there a closure to that part of the story? I don't remember reading it, but then again, i may have missed out. If there wasn't, maybe an elaboration of this part would satisfy my "criminal and criminal investigation" brain :p

Once again, thank you for the great fic.

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: May. 25th, 2012 01:53 pm (UTC)
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Hi, thank you for commenting now! :D Glad you enjoyed the story! We're very sorry it's taken us so long to reply, life's been CRAZY the last two weeks and we're only catching up now.

Yes, in Jin's backstory, Subaru, who'd let Jin stay with him for a while, was murdered. And we're sorry to say that there's no real closure there. :-/ All Jin knows is that someone killed him because he was carrying a bit of cash from johns that day, and it wasn't one of the johns he was with that day, so probably some other hustler or a druggie. (That latter part is correct, but Jin will never have confirmation on that.)

So, not much to reveal; Subaru ran a bit in drug circles and got unlucky, running into someone who was desperate and high, and nobody - except Jin - missed him much. :-/ Sorry if that isn't the closure you were hoping for. >_> For Jin, it was at least closure to find out how he died, since he didn't even know that much.

But thank you again for the comment, much appreciated!

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cagnurit

from: cagnurit
date: May. 21st, 2012 01:36 am (UTC)
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I'm so sorry for being terribly late for this post. And forgive me being so bad with words.

Throughout 58 chapters, I think Kame cried twice in front of Jin (if my memory doesn't fail me >.<). I would like to ask if there was/is/will be any situations that make Jin cry in front of Kame, or shed tears because of them (things related to their relationship)? In SDW, Jin had his hurtful trauma, but never once did he cry, and I admire his character so much with this.

And I have another question. In chapter 14 (the 'threesome' chapter), what made Kame abruptly change his mind? Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, would you mind telling me some more about that night? I get that Jin agreed because he intended to protect Yuuya. Is it because of Yuuya's reaction when seeing Jin's frozen Kame then said "let's do something else"?

Thank you so much for writing this epic work. This world you've created is so mesmerizing that it's quite hard to move on ;)

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: May. 25th, 2012 01:59 pm (UTC)
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No problem about being late... we're kind of late replying, too. :D

And they are interesting questions!

As for crying... we're pretty sure that there will be situations when Jin cries in front of Kame, yes. We haven't actually planned any; like, we know quite a few things that will happen in their future but we haven't once sat there and said to each other "And then Jin will cry." But we could imagine... okay, two things that are pretty easy. 1) Jin might cry because he's happy, actually. That could happen quite easily in their relationship. Because Kame does something really really nice for him, maybe a surprise or something. 2) For crying because he's sad, there could be things related to his family, which is still an issue and he's not as over that as he would like to be. We're not planning for Kame to make him cry because he's sad, if that's what you were asking about. *g* (Interestingly, we could see Kame being a bit of a stress-crier when they have their first big fight, but not Jin. Jin feels very much on solid ground with regard to Kame, so Kame would have to be a real ass to make Jin cry, and he won't be.)

What made Kame change his mind was, yes, Yuuya's reaction, you got that right.

Kame had a very clear image of himself at the club - and mostly it was justified: he didn't have weird demands, he treated the escorts with respect, he was aware that he was paying for a service but he was reasonable about it and tried to make the whole thing as pleasant as possible for all concerned.

Only Jin screwed that up majorly, mostly through no fault of his own, but the fact that Jin isn't the smoothest of escorts doesn't help, because Kame can blame everything on Jin's ineptness for the longest time. So here, Kame was telling himself that he was in the right, that it was just Jin who was being unreasonable and not really doing his job properly. He was also telling himself that Yuuya was the real professional, understood him much better and was kind of 'on his side'. So realizing that he was losing Yuuya too, that what was going down was putting Yuuya off, made him realize that things had taken a wrong turn and he had to do something.

He still kind of blames Jin for that, but he also knows that he's responsible for not letting it get out of hand and freaking out one escort after the other, so he stopped the situation and at least let Yuuya go.

Thanks for the cool questions and for your comment on the story, we really appreciate it! :D

Edited at 2012-05-25 02:00 pm (UTC)

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sandoicchigaaru

from: sandoicchigaaru
date: Jun. 1st, 2012 05:47 pm (UTC)
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Um. Hi? Sorry for being such a terrible lurker...I never reviewed even though I've been following this fic since the very first chapter post. So. Sorry. :( But! I wanted to say thank you for the amazing story. I've never been terribly fond of "whore" verse type fics, but I admire your writing and figured if anyone could, it'd be done right, so I followed. You all made this awesome. :)

I don't...really have a question? I just wanted to say it's so cool reading your response to questions. It's obvious that writers have so much more knowledge about their characters' back stories, motivations and the little in between the action scenes that they can't really contribute to the story for risk of weighing it down too much to retain reader interest. This kind of post is evidence that you really own and control the whole SDW verse. I both envy you your bigger picture and appreciate not having it at the same time, if that makes sense. :) The mystery is nice, but so are the little further teasing glimpses you're giving with all these questions. Thanks for knowing all this and not trying to dump it all into the story somehow.

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: Jun. 4th, 2012 02:05 pm (UTC)
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Hello there, terrible lurker! It's nice to hear from you at last. :D And thank you for the wonderful praise! If we could get somebody who doesn't like whore!fic engaged with this verse, our work is done! *eg*

Yes, actually, it makes sense, about not wanting to have the big picture yourself. Or at least, not wanting to have had it (eh. convoluted.) dumped on you while the story was going on. There was no room for it, really, the charas just wouldn't have taken time out to think about all this stuff for the benefit of the reader. Some of it they try not to think about at all, so it would have been really quite weird to put it in. And we felt that the thing was already *cough* quite long enough without adding in even more vaguely interesting scenes which didn't really lead anywhere.

So, uh, thank you for appreciating this and letting us know about it. We like to think that our judgement about what to put in and what to leave out was pretty good (though ultimately, we remain aware that we could have left out even more, if we'd been really strict with ourselves). :D

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Anais Bayrakdarian

from: anais_bayrakdar
date: Aug. 20th, 2012 06:19 am (UTC)
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I've been very busy lately, so I just noticed this post, and I've been meaning to ask this for the longest time:
There is a scene where Jin is waiting for Kame to finish cooking and he looks at a picture of Kame and Midori together. So I was wondering, Jin being Jin and all, did he ever meet her? I kind of imagined him wanting to apologise to her or something.
and thanks for taking the time to answer questions ^^

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haikuesque

from: haikuesque
date: Aug. 20th, 2012 03:25 pm (UTC)
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So I was wondering, Jin being Jin and all, did he ever meet her?

We love how you put that. Jin being Jin indeed. :D

It's an interesting question, Jin and Midori! We don't think he wants to apologize to her, exactly. Or rather, logically, he doesn't think he should, that would be... weird. He was a callboy and Kame was married to her and had racked up a history of cheating all on his own.

But he does feel guilty towards her, in a very unconstructive way. He doesn't seek her out, though; he assumes-- correctly -- that he's got no right to intrude on her and maybe upset her more.

When they meet, eventually, it's brought on by circumstances. About four years after the end of the story, Kame's father faints at work, and gets rushed to hospital because OMG HEART ATTACK. It turns out not a heart attack, just something going wrong because of his diabetes, but everyone rushes to the hospital, Kame's mom, and Jin and Kame, and Midori and her new baby.

So that's when Midori and Jin first meet each other; it's mostly awkward, because the wounds have mostly healed, and Jin is terribly nervous and weirdly expects to be hit in the face every second. (He knows this is stupid.) Midori doesn't want to like him, and she doesn't really like him, but she has to concede he's a nice guy, and seems dependable while Kame is having a Kame-freak-out. It hurts a bit to see them together, but not too much, anymore.

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